Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 December 5

*”’Strongest Keep”’. An utterly ridiculous nomination. Very clearly defining. I wonder what the nominator does actually think we should keep? This sort of nomination is an attack on the whole principle of categorisation. Many people are very definitely known for going to a particular school or university. In the example above, Churchill very famously went to Harrow. Frankly, this is the sort of nomination which makes me wonder why I bother to work on this encyclopaedia, and certainly why some others bother. The reason, if you’re interested, is to impart information! Not to delete it. — [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 15:28, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

*”’Strongest Keep”’. An utterly ridiculous nomination. Very clearly defining. I wonder what the nominator does actually think we should keep? This sort of nomination is an attack on the whole principle of categorisation. Many people are very definitely known for going to a particular school or university. In the example above, Churchill very famously went to Harrow. Frankly, this is the sort of nomination which makes me wonder why I bother to work on this encyclopaedia, and certainly why some others bother. The reason, if you’re interested, is to impart information! Not to delete it. — [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 15:28, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

*”’Strong keep”’, education is a strongly defining factor in many people’s careers, and the connexions made there which are reflected in the categorisation are significant. The example of Prince Charles is silly – if the defining characteristic is that he is heir to the throne then that is the only category we should have! Building on the use of Churchill as an example, that Churchill was a Harrovian who never went to university is actually a significant difference from all the Eton and King’s types, or Balliol men, who infest our history. If, as OP claims, there are cases where a category is being used that is not supported by the content of the article, then the correct action is either to mention and source it in the article, or to remove the article from the category with an appropriate edit summary, not to delete the category. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 15:32, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

*”’Strong keep”’, education is a strongly defining factor in many people’s careers, and the connexions made there which are reflected in the categorisation are significant. The example of Prince Charles is silly – if the defining characteristic is that he is heir to the throne then that is the only category we should have! Building on the use of Churchill as an example, that Churchill was a Harrovian who never went to university is actually a significant difference from all the Eton and King’s types, or Balliol men, who infest our history. If, as OP claims, there are cases where a category is being used that is not supported by the content of the article, then the correct action is either to mention and source it in the article, or to remove the article from the category with an appropriate edit summary, not to delete the category. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 15:32, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

*”’Strong keep”’ per others and perhaps the majority of editors on wikipedia. Experience counts for adding categories BLPs/bios. Once notability of the person has been established, educational categories are almost always added by wikipedians, slowly, democratically and by consensus. It is unlikely categories for people linked to educational establishments can be dealt with in a systematic way. Millions of articles would be affected, so it’s not an issue that can be reversed in one fell swoop here. I’ve listed the BLPs/bios I’ve created: [[Johannes-Ernst Köhler|α]], [[Hans Otto (organist)|β]], [[Erich Piasetzki|γ]], [[J. Michael Diack|δ]], [[John Christian Jacobi|ε]], [[Walter of Durham|ζ]], [[Bertram Colgrave|η]], [[Edmund de Unger|θ]], [[Ernst J. Grube|ι]], [[Arthur Rosenthal|κ]], [[David Eric Lothian Johnston|λ]], [[Robert M. Hauser|μ]],[[Otto Klineberg|ν]], [[Pietro Castrucci|ξ]], [[John Clegg (violinist)|ο]] (”omicron”!), [[Basil Lam|π]], [[Christopher Jencks|ρ]], [[Charles Sanford Terry (historian)|σ]], [[Nicholas Mackintosh|τ]], [[Caroline Elam|υ]], [[Janet Trotter|φ]], [[Guy of Ibelin, seneschal of Cyprus|χ]], [[Guy of Ibelin (bishop)|ψ]] and [[Robert Hall, Baron Roberthall|ω]]. For BLPs, WP often isn’t reliable. At random I chose someone I know well [[John Clayton Taylor]] ([[Richard Taylor (mathematician)|Richard Taylor]]’s father). There’s a link to the 2022 Who’s Who “Selhurst Grammar Sch., Croydon; Peterhouse, Cambridge (MA)” and “Lectr, Imperial Coll., London, 1956–60; Lectr, Cambridge Univ., and Fellow of Peterhouse, 1960–64; Reader in Theoretical Physics, Oxford Univ., and Fellow of University Coll., Oxford, 1964–80 (Hon. Fellow, 1989)”. Why no mention of [[University College, Oxford]] on WP (Jpbowen’s alma mater)? For other sample bios/BLPs, see [[John Milton|I]], [[William Wordsworth|II]], [[Simon Schama|III]], [[Emmy Noether|IV]], [[Fanny Waterman|V]], [[Thomas Adès|VI]], [[Jeanne Lamon|VII]], [[Rachael Padman|VIII]], [[Ruth Lawrence|IX]], etc. [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 15:58, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

*”’Strong keep”’ per others and perhaps the majority of editors on wikipedia. Experience counts for adding categories for BLPs/bios. Once notability of the person has been established, educational categories are almost always added by wikipedians, slowly, democratically and by consensus. It is unlikely categories for people linked to educational establishments can be dealt with in a systematic way. Millions of articles would be affected, so it’s not an issue that can be reversed in one fell swoop here. I’ve listed the BLPs/bios I’ve created: [[Johannes-Ernst Köhler|α]], [[Hans Otto (organist)|β]], [[Erich Piasetzki|γ]], [[J. Michael Diack|δ]], [[John Christian Jacobi|ε]], [[Walter of Durham|ζ]], [[Bertram Colgrave|η]], [[Edmund de Unger|θ]], [[Ernst J. Grube|ι]], [[Arthur Rosenthal|κ]], [[David Eric Lothian Johnston|λ]], [[Robert M. Hauser|μ]],[[Otto Klineberg|ν]], [[Pietro Castrucci|ξ]], [[John Clegg (violinist)|ο]] (”omicron”!), [[Basil Lam|π]], [[Christopher Jencks|ρ]], [[Charles Sanford Terry (historian)|σ]], [[Nicholas Mackintosh|τ]], [[Caroline Elam|υ]], [[Janet Trotter|φ]], [[Guy of Ibelin, seneschal of Cyprus|χ]], [[Guy of Ibelin (bishop)|ψ]] and [[Robert Hall, Baron Roberthall|ω]]. For BLPs, WP often isn’t reliable. At random I chose someone I know well [[John Clayton Taylor]] ([[Richard Taylor (mathematician)|Richard Taylor]]’s father). There’s a link to the 2022 Who’s Who entry: “Selhurst Grammar Sch., Croydon; Peterhouse, Cambridge (MA)” and “Lectr, Imperial Coll., London, 1956–60; Lectr, Cambridge Univ., and Fellow of Peterhouse, 1960–64; Reader in Theoretical Physics, Oxford Univ., and Fellow of University Coll., Oxford, 1964–80 (Hon. Fellow, 1989)”. Why no mention of [[University College, Oxford]] on WP (Jpbowen’s alma mater)? For other sample bios/BLPs, see [[John Milton|I]], [[William Wordsworth|II]], [[Simon Schama|III]], [[Emmy Noether|IV]], [[Fanny Waterman|V]], [[Thomas Adès|VI]], [[Jeanne Lamon|VII]], [[Rachael Padman|VIII]], [[Ruth Lawrence|IX]], etc. [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 15:58, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

*”’Keep”’. Such categories are very relevant in the UK where “old boys” from [[Eton College|Eton]] and Oxbridge colleges, for example, are over-represented in the establishment. It is also interesting to see the achievements of less elitist institutions such as [[Burslem School of Art]].–[[User:Thoughtfortheday|Thoughtfortheday]] ([[User talk:Thoughtfortheday|talk]]) 16:09, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

*”’Keep”’. Such categories are very relevant in the UK where “old boys” from [[Eton College|Eton]] and Oxbridge colleges, for example, are over-represented in the establishment. It is also interesting to see the achievements of less elitist institutions such as [[Burslem School of Art]].–[[User:Thoughtfortheday|Thoughtfortheday]] ([[User talk:Thoughtfortheday|talk]]) 16:09, 6 December 2021 (UTC)